In light of RNG buttfucking us every three nights for the past four months and Ex/Sarp continually exhibiting pansy behavior, we've finally decided to impose loot rules on the ZA Bear Runs we perform. Specifically on the bear. ~_~

The Rundown:

Individuals who attend bear runs will be organized into 4 tiers, with players in the first tier getting priority on the bear mount. Every 5 runs or so, we'll take a look at how things are shaping up, who's been attending/absent, and rework the tiers. Obviously individuals who attend more often will move up in tiers more quickly than those whose presence we are not often blessed with. I'm not really able to give you any hard and fast numbers as the periodic reworking of the tiers is a fairly subjective process, but we basically look at your attendance ratio in relation to others', keeping in mind extenuating factors (real life, a glut of a specific class, etc etc). Individuals who have already won a bear mount and are seeking another one on their alt will be placed in the bottom tier and will have to work their way back up again. More probable than not, however, you will be required to bring your main since Ultadi dies alot on Eagle trash and we lose time that way. I dunno. Take it up with him.

Yes, the system is kinda subjective, I'm aware, and for that I apologize. But take comfort in the fact that I am nothing if not world renown renown for my incredible moral probity. It's cool, don't worry about it.

The Justification:

It's unfair for people to run a dungeon for 4 months and subsequently hand out bear mounts on a weekly basis to first time comers///no shows. It's unfair for those who have invested somewhere over a thousand gold into learning///consuming//perfecting the run over several months for absolutely no gain thus far. It's unfair for new players who are looking to get a spot for ZA, as veterans are reluctant to bring newer players that they now have to roll against for the mount. And lastly (and figuring most prominently in our decision to stop free rolling) it's unfair to ME because of the incredible amount of QQ that I have to endure from both groups. That shit is seriously taking years off my life. The new system has the two fold benefit of making sure the mounts go to individuals who have put the most time//effort into the instance while ameliorating some of the barriers to new players seeking to join in on the "fun."

The Current Standings:

A few of us hammered out this list last night///fuck it's morning already. If you think the rankings do not accurately represent previous attendance, come talk to me, and we'll talk it over. Again, this is not mathematically sound, it's simply our best estimation of how often individuals have attended since we began this excruciating endeavor. If I left you off the list, say something and we'll squeeze you in somewhere, hopefully where you belong.

Tier 1: Krystle Tianxing

Tier 2: Ultadi Nikkino

Tier 3: Tanzit Illmanic Adobe Dorix Kuriasa Briand

Tier 4: Clowd Zephemera Saveyour Bloodyknife Zeylia Kiodez Odiss Caragdur Yorimaru

All other loot in ZA is free roll, with the implication that you are encouraged to pass to raiding mains.

How has the RNG "buttfucked" you?

If you've never been to ZA before, you're pretty much guaranteed to roll 95-100 on the bear mount. You're also pretty much guaranteed to never show up again.

I guess the other question becomes, those with low priority, how do they know that those with high priority will keep showing up to help them get bear mounts?

It's a double edged sword, the only fair way is a 10 man static and the commitment that those 10 players will run it until 10 bears are to be had, elsewise there is always a chance someone will get the short end of the stick.

All that being said, I'd be happy to help out sometimes if needed. A bear would be nice, the trinket from Hex Lord would be nicer tho

I noticed this is after the raid usually. About how long does it take.....do you stop at the 4th boss? or Finish it?

I'd love to go - the problem I have is it is after raids and I am already at work by that time. I'd happily run with you guys - especially now that I am familar with all the bosses - but if it is going to be a weekday night at 1pm then I will never get into a run. Is there any way to do this on a Friday or Saturday when more people would be on and/or available? I agree with Max that the trinket would be huge and the bear mount nice but I would pass to someone who I knew ran it all the time.

MaximusRex said:

It's a double edged sword, the only fair way is a 10 man static and the commitment that those 10 players will run it until 10 bears are to be had, elsewise there is always a chance someone will get the short end of the stick.

Max is right. If you want to stop new people from getting the bear mount, then don't invite new people. Keep the same 10 man roster, run it over and over again every time it resets, profit. The only way I'd agree to a loot system for getting the bear mount is if I knew for a fact that people who already got their mount were gonna be there to help everyone else get one.

Also, what the hell is this doing in the public forums? I'm moving it.

EDIT: As soon as I can figure out how to move it.

I'm not interested in any way in a bear mount, but do wish to take my melee shaman to ZA every so often for fun. Keep Soupgoesdps in mind next time you go in. :)

I WILL PASS on any mount in ZA. (I prefer the bird in heroic MgT, honestly.)

This is in the public forum because we have 1-2 members who run regularly with us who are not in the guild.

Also, yes the most obvious and ideal solution is to have the same ten people run the instance every reset. But, we've had an incredible turnover rate since we've started handing out mounts, to the point where more than one individual has described the entire process as an ursine gifting treadmill. People who win the mount often do not show up again, for one reason or another (real life, dramaz, they have a mount, blah blah blah), so it's really impossible to keep a static roster. We need to be constantly infusing the raid with new blood to keep it running, and this has unfortunately lead to the aforementioned issues.

If you can find me maybe 5 people who do around 900-1000 dps, 1200 hps, or 1100 tps and are willing to do this every reset, then tbh we can just scrap the loot rules and move on. But so far, turnover has dictated that we impose structure.

In regards to how higher tiered players will stick around for lower tier players- there's not really a solid guarantee built into the system. Alot of players run ZA for loot other than the bear. No less than 6 of our raid members last night needed the Hex Shrunken Head (this is not uncommon), 2 needed the Hood of Hexing, 3 needed the Melee DPS Ring, etc etc. The need for loot is more or less the glue that will keep players sticking to the group (well that, and the goodness/generosity of their hearts). Yes, this is imperfect, but observe that the ZA loot system is almost entirely analogous to DKP, both in respect to its strengths and its flaws (how do you make someone stay after having geared them up for BT? there's really no guarantee at all there either). In short, this is the best we've come up with, feel free to suggest alternatives///tweaks.

That being said, it's completely unrealistic to expect that individuals who have won their bears will stay around forever. When have they run enough resets to have paid their dues? Again, there's no hard and fast rule, but rather a rough guideline- stay until everyone who was present at your winning run has gotten the mount. Obviously this is meant to be flexible, like if we had to substitute in a player, if someone is not available to run for whatever reason, etc etc. 10/10 Does not seem really feasible, but say something like 8/10, feel good that you've done your civic duty to the guild and call it a day. Anything beyond that is a bonus///you have terrible luck with loot drops (loltevis). The idea is that by the time lower tiered individuals have moved up to the higher tiers, they have run the strat enough times to teach it to those who are new.

In regards to raid times- yeah I know they suck, but it's really the best time we've figured out for the majority of the raid group. Unless you guys want to move it to right before BT? The bear run takes 45 minutes, the last two encounters another 30-45 on top of that (we tend to slow down once the timer has expired). I know we have alot of West Coast raiders, so this might not really be a viable option either, just seeing what people have to say. If you guys have some solid suggestions for alternative times, toss them out.

The reason I recommended this be put in another forum is because there's no need to have an argument like what's about to happen here be public knowledge. So be it.

When I want something from an instance, I expect that the people that help me will want something from me in return. I plan for that as much as I plan for the acquisition of the item in the first place; setting aside time to repay them is important to me. I work out repayment plans in advance so they're clear and make sure they're acceptable to all involved.

It just looks like you're trying to guilt trip the people who didn't cheat you out of a bear mount (nevermind the reason that new people keep getting the bear mount is that you didn't set these rules in the first place) into giving you one without recompense. Especially since you've left ample leeway for you to claim you've "paid your dues" once you get the mount and that the other people you've run with have "run the strat enough times to teach it to those who are new." This also smacks of not investigating nor caring how much work has been done to achieve the same goal outside of your bear runs. What are we supposed to do once you leave, reroll Paladin?

Bottom line, run your Bear Runs however you like. But if the group isn't made up of like-minded individuals who are willing to give as well as they get and stick around to repay the people who helped them, then count me out.